Dumb newb question

[tedoo]

Hello,

I've recently been tasked with reviving an old studio which was abandoned about ten years ago-its got a D8B and an Otari Radar which I've been wanting to try for years, so i'm excited to get the place running again.

I've had problems with the D8B-but due to this website I've been able to get through most problems- i'm sure I'll have some queries later down the line though...

Just a quick question for now, basically is the D8B solely digital? From the manual it seems that there are convertors on every input, whether its LINE, XLRs, or the INS, but I'm wondering whether I can send the audio to the Radar as unconverted audio from the D8B? or does all sound going in and out undergo digital conversion? i'm 95% sure thats the case but just want to be sure.

Regards,
Dan

[captainamerica]

Dan...can't speak to your Radar question but I assume you have looked at the http://www.sonido-7.com/d8b/inout.html

[tedoo]

Thanks for the link captainamerica, that page is a godsend. Not what im looking for at the moment though. The reason I ask is that i'm having problems getting sound into the mixer. Initially it wouldn't even start up, now i've sorted that out-it boots up fine, ive got a screen,keyboard and mouse all functioning as they should be, ive checked BIOS settings, I dont even get the error 43 message anymore, so everything SHOULD be working. But if i stuick anytjhing into the LINE

[tedoo]

sorry i pressed enter half way through that. to continue....if i stick anything into the LINE or MIC inputs, and make sure the MIC switch is in the correct position, ive followed the instructions but the meters just dont pick anything up, and no sound comes out into my monitors...is there any obvious thing im missing? or is it caused by a bug or some other software issue, but as I say, it boots up fine now.

Any help much appreciated, thanks again

[Y-my-R]

Hi Tedoo,

Your posts kinda include a couple of questions and possible answers now, so I'll try to separate those:

Is the D8B all digital, or can you send signal back out before it gets A-to-D converted?
If you have analog signals coming into the Line or Mic inputs, you can tap the signal while it's still analog, from the Insert jacks on the first 12 channels.
After the insert point in the D8B's signal flow, it will hit the converter, and from there, everything is digital. (To be honest, though, I think a Signal Flow diagram exists, but I didn't look for it for this answer. The above just seems logical to me).
I assume that tapping the signal at the Insert, isn't really what you're looking for to integrate the Radar System as the multi-track recorder.

How do I connect the Radar System to the D8B like a Multitrack Tape Machine?
This depends on what I/O cards you have installed in the D8B, and what I/O options you have on your Radar system. I just read up on it for a moment, and it seems that both, the Radar I and Radar II have TDIF I/O ports? I didn't quite understand how many, though. IF the Radar has 3 TDIF connectors, and your D8B happens to have 3 DIO-8 cards (ADAT & TDIF connectors), then you could transfer 24 channels between them digitally, and without repeated AtoD, DtoA and AtoD conversions. This would also be how the D8B is supposed to work. The TDIF I/O would then appear in the D8B as Tape Sends and Tape Returns - so, exactly how you'd want it to work with a Tape machine (and kind of like using a Mackie HDR with ADAT or TDIF cards).
I haven't used a RADAR system personally, but heard people rave about the converters back in the day (I never heard anybody rave about the D8Bs). So, if at all possible, I'd set it up to use the Radar's converters and interface digitally with the D8B.

I don't see a signal when I connect a Mic or Line source (with the button in the right position). Why?
The first thing I'd check, is if you're on the right "layer". To the left and a little up from the "Speaker Level" knob, are three buttons labeled "Mic/Line", "Tape In" and "Effects". Make sure "Mic/Line" is pressed, to activate that layer for use on the D8B.
If you are on the correct layer, then you should see levels here. If not, then there's still something wrong. Could be a bad Startup song (delete Startup song, restart) or a hardware issue.
If it's the latter, and deleting the startup song doesn't work, then I'd need more details... what's connected where, exactly. Is the startup song using the default settings, etc. etc.

Anyway... let's check for this stuff first, and take it from there.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[tedoo]

Wow, thank you very much for your response y-my-R. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Well I'll say first that this studio is in an amazing old building, genuinely similar to Hogwarts, it actually is a school. And the studio is top notch. Its patched up to a huge hall, a big high live room, 3 smaller sound proof rooms and a long low attic room above the control room. Theres 2 d8b's, a Radar 2, Joe Meek comps, pres, TL Audio stuff, loads more hardware, an akai s6000 with the screen missing..all patched up, sound proofing in floors, roof, walls-i've seen the invoices. Its crazy. It was literally abandoned about 15 years ago, and most of it all still works.

So regarding your points on the Radar, yes i'm assuming it will work with the D8B because basically its in there, patched up on a rack, and i'm pretty sure it has 3 TDIF I/O ports like you say. But I haven't crossed that bridge quite yet-i'm sure i'll be coming back to your comment when i do. Same kind of goes for the cards, theres one in the back (which i've re-seated) and a few lying around, but without looking I cant be sure. pretty sure there is 3 tape cards lying around though but i'll be back with more info.

I've made sure its on MIC/LINE, and i've 00 snapshot restored the board. I did think about the start up song so I created a fresh session, pretty sure i reverted it to default, but I'll have another go-delete start up song, re-start-and let you know.

Almost all the TRS inputs/outputs are occupied. Like i say theres only one card in the back, obviously console data cable, a screen, mouse and keyboard...from the Quickstart chapter, it seems like i've got enough things to get it to accept sound. But ill have another go and get back to you. Basically though you've confirmed my concern that because its a digital mixer, it might not even accept sound past its pre-amps, and therefore the problem could be loads of annoying little things-cards, cables, software...way beyond my skill set so thanks for helping out.

Sorry for the long reply but thought it might help to get a bit of context. btw I did think the INS were 2 way as you say, but wasn't sure whether they were before or after convertors, so thanks also for that.

Happy Thanksgiving also!

[Y-my-R]

Actually - what you said about there only being one card installed in the back of the D8B, is critical.

For the D8B to work as a mixer, there has to be a "Clock Card" installed into the "SYNC" slot. If there's no card in that slot, the D8B will not work. It will boot up (kind of like you described), but will not pass any audio.

There's two types of clock cards that can be installed.

One is the "stock" clock card, that only allows the D8B to run on internal clock. This type of card would be "hidden" behind a slot cover, since it doesn't have any connectors to the outside world. If this D8B was previously used in a larger studio environment and together with that Radar system, then it most likely was NOT used with the stock clock card, but with the next card I'm describing.

The other, far superior solution for a clock card that goes into the SYC slot, is the "Apogee Clock Card". That's the only one that allows you to sync the D8B to external clock - either from a "House Clock" unit, or maybe from the Radar. In a larger Studio complex, you most likely had a "House Clock" that everything was syncing to.
Also, if the two D8B units you said were in that studio were used together, then they MUST have used Apogee Clock cards, or it wouldn't have worked.

So, if the "one card" that is installed in the back of that D8B is anything other than an Apogee Clock card, then the D8B will not work as a mixer. You need that card. I "think", but am not sure, that it would then not even show signal on the mic/line inputs if that card is missing.

It's pretty common when a D8B is decomissioned, that all the cards (other than the "Digital I/O" card, that comes with every D8B, so nobody needs an extra one of those) get raided and removed, to be sold separately to make some extra cash. So, if this happened here, you'll need to replace the cards before you can use the D8B in a meaningful way.

In this case, and before continuing, I think the most important thing for you to verify is what cards you have available.

- A "stock" clock card is the absolute minimum to even have the D8B pass audio
- A "Apogee Clock Card" is what you need to properly sync the D8B to other digital devices in the studio
- A (1) card needs to be installed in one of the "Tape I/O" slots for each 8 Tracks of audio that should be sent&received from a (digital) tape machine, such as the Radar. So, typically you'd have 3 of the same type of such cards installed in the 3 Tape In/Out slots, in order to get 24 channels In and Out from a tape machine (analog cards for an analog machine, or one of the couple different digital card options that were available, for a digital recorder like the HDR or the Radar).
- The Alt I/O slot is kinda optional, but very useful (e.g. it's used when cascading two D8Bs together, but is also your general "wild card" of 8 inputs/outputs that aren't tied to a specific purpose (e.g like the Tape I/O cards are).
- The 4 card slots hidden behind that larger metal cover, are where the FX cards go. You have to have cards in there, if you want to use any of the FX plug-ins that can be installed on the D8B (Channel EQ and compressor etc. works without FX cards... but "send" and "insert" plug-in FX need FX cards installed into these slots.

In short - you see that the cards you have available for your D8B, determine what you can do with it. If there's no Clock Card, you can't do anything with it (...other than possibly getting a ProBox and using the D8B as a control surface instead... but it won't work as a mixer).

[tedoo]

Thank you very much again.

I went back in today. Hadn't read your post before so just double checked with the default startup song stuff. Wasn't entirely sure how to delete the startup song but basically i created a new session, set it as default, saved it as default 2019, powered down, restarted, 'default 2019' was the new startup-still didn't work.

I then tried without ANY cards-i took the DIGITAL I/O 1 AES/EBU card out of the DIGITAL I/O slot.

Still didn't work.

I made a list of all the cards i could find in the studio-
APOGEE DIGITAL I/O (x3)
DIGITAL I/O AES/EBU 1 S/PDIF 2 (x2)
PDI 8 AES/EBU I/O (x1)

and 3 tape cards-
TAPE 1-8
TAPE 9-16
TAPE 17-24
However these do NOT have the TDIF connections on them, they've all just got 2 weird little square holes on them (adat optical maybe).

Obviously from reading your latest post you've basically cleared everything up.

The SYNC slot was empty but I've just searched for 'd8b clock card' and actually there is one of those in the studio-it doesn't have a metal panel on it-it is just a blue circuit board, I thought it was junk.

I think this is the issue, I've never tried it with a clock card in place. So that will be my next port of call, there is no panel at the moment so the entire card cage section is exposed (except the FX card slots which do have the panel) but I think there is a sync panel on the other D8B. If not though, ill just try it without the panel for now.

There must have been a APOGEE CLOCK CARD in it at some point if they're essential to use with 2 D8B's, but I cant see any at the moment. Hopefully the standard card will work cos it looks hard to get hold of the better APOGEE ones.

Regarding syncing it with the other D8B, the Radar and the card stuff (which i'll get to once i get sound coming in);

I don't know what the deal is with those 3 tape cards though that don't have TDIF slots? maybe they were used on the other D8B. i reckon the normal ones have been taken or hiding. I can see that they're hard to come by and expensive, hopefully they might turn up because yes id like to use them with the Radar, seems that gives you the most options. Rather than sending as audio to the Radar.

I don't know what the PDI 8 AES/EBU card does.

There are 3 APOGEE DIGITAL I/O's cards, there are 2 D8B's so that makes sense. Slightly confuses me though because the actual desk that the mixer sits on is not really big enough for 2 mixers but watever...

I'm not too bothered about the digital FX at the moment-theres plenty of good hardware in the studio for now.

I will get back to you next week. Thank you very much indeed, I would be totally stumped without your help : )

[Crash]

Without any kind of clocking, the console will not pass signal. other than the 2-track A-C returns, which are an all analog path as I recall.

[tedoo]

Back in the studio today.

I put a Clock Card in-boom! It works : ) There was one in the other D8B. Similar to the other one it hasn't got a panel but its different because it has 2 of those circular metal connections, rather like an old school TV cable-I'm presuming it is an APOGEE Clock Card. Either way it seems to be working.

On that point, out of interest does anyone know the name of those connectors? Because theres a patchbay in the power room above the PSU's that is comprised entirely of these connections, I've never seen them in a studio before, they look like those old TV cables-thin circular plate of metal with a single pin in the middle, the female has a single hollow tube.

Now my next task is to hook the D8B up with the Radar. I've realised that the 3 'apogee digital I/O' cards are tape cards and so I've put them in. Little red LEDs light up. I connected other ends to the Radar's Digital I/Os. Obviously the Radar is giving me problems now-keeps asking me to reboot-anyway thats of no concern to anyone here. I'm sure I will have lots more questions on the D8B in the near future, but for now I just want to say thanks very much for your help 'y-my-R'. Im sure i'll be referring to your comments again.

And thanks 'Crash'-thats good to know about the A-C Returns. The INSERTS are pre digital as well which is something. It would be great though if the D8B had a TDIF Audio Out that you could connect to the Radar-the Radar has both digital and analogue I/Os-because I'd like to get as much of the raw sound from the famed convertors on the Radar rather than the converting it first in the D8B. I guess I could get a TDIF to TRS patchbay (if such a thing exists) and send out to the Radar via the INSERT sends.

But anyway, thanks a lot again, i'm sure i'll have more questions about the D8B in the future.