d8b Forum

Well, I'm sure y'all know what the topic of this posted thread is... and if you've read this far, I got some eyeballs on things being considered...

That all being said, I'm going to make the first attempt of explaining what I've got and where I'm planning to go. I'd also greatly appreciate any constructive criticism, ideas, etc... I'm also doing what I can to post support material (images) to illustrate things for those that would benefit from that as well.

So, without any further blustery, I'll begin by listing out the various pieces of hardware involved and how it fits into the architecture (see image).

Mackie D8B Console/Host
Mackie HDR 24/96 Recorder (w Remote24)
Mackie Onyx 800R 8-Ch Analog Mic Preamp (w Digital ADAT Outputs)
Cranborne 500R8 USB Audio Interface / Summing Mixer / 500 Series Rack
Rosendahl NanosyncS DDS Sync Reference Generator
Frontier Systems Apache ADAT Patchbay
Alesis MasterLink ML-9600
ART HeadAmp 6 Pro



All of the above is under consideration to being routed to 48 pt balanced patchbay(s), or the Apache in the case of the Toslink ADAT stuff. The Apache is probably the singular piece of gear that really makes this work, the ability to move the ADAT I/O around at the flick a of switch (or two) is bedrock. I've completed the presets for that (at the moment) so I'm concentrating on the remainder for the moment. Mostly tie lines, with a couple normalized connection points that 'stuck out' as being obvious for me based on the gear and usage patterns. The Onyx 800R connections are all tie lines based around normal i/o of the unit itself, the Apache handles the ADAT output utilized by the Cranborne USB interface. That unit has some audio i/o in the mix output section that could be quite useful for monitoring ITB DAW audio (mac mini / macos / logic pro), as well as the analog card cage (in, insert, out) section for each slot... the plan is for a stereo channel strip (500 series) hardware setup.



On the D8B, you've probably noticed I haven't tapped the mic, insert or line (1-12, 1-12 & 1-24 respectively) outs from the rear of the console. I don't have any plans to use these unless of course expanded connectivity needs arise. I don't use these, and I side-step the older tech preamp(s) and DAC of the D8B... I don't do much with the 1st 'logical' surface (ch 1-24). The I/O of all the ADAT payload is routed thru the Frontier Apache... 1 in to N many output connections, per input... programmable, quickly available via user persets (mine). So I'm really concentrating mostly on the Aux 1-12, Bus 1-8, 2-Track ins and the sundry of ancillary outputs. I have the control room near field and mains directly connected (no plans to change for the moment). I'm in the process of reconstructing the 'ideal workflow' for me based on the available gear.

I did what I could within reason to keep this as concise and informative as I could without killing anyone's bandwidth and/or interest. Of course, all apologies for any inaccuracies or confusion in either the text or images extended... it can be kinda confusing enuff without any errors (LOL),

Any/all input, constructive criticism, etc is greatly appreciated... thanx in advance for bearing w me, y'all!

Those flow-diagrams and patchbay mapping pics look like a TON of work!!

I wonder what software you used for that… I was looking for a free app to do the same kind of thing for my setup at some point, but then never really followed through.

What I didn’t fully understand in the diagram is, how many ADAT channels are connected between the various devices. I’d assume 24 channels of ADAT between the D8B and HDR (but with the Digital Patchbay in-between)… but the Cranborne only does 8 channels, I think, but uses the same symbol in the diagram. So, not sure if each ADAT line means 8 channels or basically the number of ADAT ports the connected device has…?

What I also sort of derive from the image, is that you’re basically running the HDR/D8B combo as a recording system, while the Cranborne serves as your audio interface, transferring 8 channels between computer/cranborne and the patchbay… which I would assume would then by default be connected to the Alt I/O?

I have a similar setup, and wish I had a Cranborne unit, but that’ll still have to wait.

Also, the setup I’m describing below, is not exactly what I’m running now, but is the concept I want to put in place, once I got a hold of a working M-Audio ProFire 2626 unit (I used to have one and know what it can and cannot do). I still felt that this “imaginary” setup, makes more sense for comparison and to point out additional options. (Reality on the ground for me is, that I have an Analog I/O card in the Alt I/O slot and still have THAT on the patchbay… but looks like I might get a 2626 very soon… someone said I can have theirs).

For me it’s this:

D8B digital:
D8B DIO-8 ADAT 1-8: Digital Patchbay (goes to PreSonus Quantum ADAT 1-8 by default)
D8B DIO-8 ADAT 9-16: PreSonus Quantum ADAT 9-16
D8B DIO-8 ADAT 17-24: Universal Audio Apollo 8
D8B DIO-8 ADAT Alt I/O: Digital Patchbay (got to M-Audio ProFire 2626 (as Standalone bi-directional converter))
D8B DIO-8 TDIF 1-8: HDR TDIF 1-8
D8B DIO-8 TDIF 9-16: HDR TDIF 9-16 (planned… not connected, yet)
D8B DIO-8 TDIF 17-24: HDR TDIF 17-24 (planned… not connected, yet)
S/PDIF: Digital Patchbay (goes to PreSonus S/PDIF in by default… that’s how I capture mixes from the D8B).
AES/EBU out: Panasonic DAT recorder (not that I'd really still use that, but the option is there)

HDR digital:
HDR DIO-8 TDIF 1-8: D8B TDIF 1-8
HDR DIO-8 TDIF 9-16: D8B TDIF 1-8 (planned… not connected yet)
HDR DIO-8 TDIF 17-24: D8B TDIF 1-8 (planned… not connected, yet)

PreSonus Quantum digital:
Quantum ADAT 1-8: Digital Patchbay (goes to D8B ADAT 1-8 by default)
Quantum ADAT 9-16: D8B ADAT 9-16
S/PDIF: Digital Patchbay (receives D8B mixes by default).

Apollo 8 digital:
Apollo ADAT 1-8: D8B ADAT 17-24
S/PDIF: Digital Patchbay (no default routing).

M-Audio Octane (Standalone 8-channel pre):
ADAT Out 1-8: Digital Patchbay (typically used on D8B ADAT 1-8, when using my electronic drum kit. That’s connected to the inserts on that unit).

ProFire 2626 digital (Standalone):
ADAT 1-8: Digital Patchbay (goes to D8B Alt I/O by default, while the analog jacks go to the analog patchbay. This allows to switch 8 channels digitally (to D8B ADAT 1-8 or Alt I/O) or patch analog signals to the Alt I/O without having to decide on analog or digital via the card installed into the D8B’s Alt I/O.
If I had a Cranborne unit, I would replace the ProFire 2626 with it, as it can serve the same digital/analog purpose via the digital and analog patchbays, AND has room for additional outboard effects, I could then choose to tie in over the ALT I/O, digitally.

There’s a number of additional S/PDIF devices connected to the digital patchbay, but that would unnecessarily complicate things if I’d list this here.

How it works:
- Anyway, essentially, the idea of the above is, to have 24 channels going between the computer and the D8B via, or alternatively between the HDR and D8B (via TDIF… but I don’t have all the cables I need, and typically use my setup with a DAW, anyway).
- Alternatively, I can have 8 ADAT channels from the Octane/Electronic Drums go to D8B 1-8, to monitor the (pilot) drums without latency. I could also send these to the Alt I/O, but mostly use channels 1-8.
- Alternatively, I can send signals from the ProFire 2626 to Channels 1-8 or the Alt I/O.
- Alternatively, I can send 8 ADAT channels between the Quantum and either D8B channels 1-8 or the Alt I/O.

As for the analog connections, this is what I have on the (analog) patchbay:

D8b analog:
- 24x line inputs to analog patchbay. My synths/samplers are normalled to these, but when I print stems, I don’t use these pres/converters.
- 12x Mic inputs (with all channels having end points on an analog XLR bay in the control room, and also on a stagebox in the recording room)
- 12 Aux Sends (normalled to my outboard FX units)
- 8 Buss Outputs (DB25 - normalled to my surround speakers)
- 2x Headphones: Patchbay for easy access
(I do NOT have the inserts on the patch bay, since I wouldn’t record through the converters/pres, anyway. No point for an “advanced” signal flow with inserts for me, here).

PreSonus Quantum analog:
- 6x Line inputs: Analog Patchbay (not normalled… only 6 because XLR/TRS combo jacks on the front panel are stupid for use with patchbays)
- 8x Line outputs: Analog Patchbay (normalled to first 8 channels of 16-channel Analog summing mixer)

UA Apollo 8 analog:
- 8x Line input: Analog Patchbay (not normalled)
- 8x Line output: Analog Patchbay (normalled to second set of 8 channels of 16-channel analog summing mixer)

ProFire 2626 analog:
8x Line input: Analog Patchbay (not normalled)
8x Line Output: Analog Patchbay (not normalled).

How it works:
- I typically only use the D8B’s analog inputs to MONITOR (not record) my outboard synths and FX units. But for that, it’s great to have that whole layer of 24 analog channels!
- The audio interface inputs are on the analog patchbay, because I typically record directly to the DAW via those interfaces, and patch what I want to record. Additional analog Pres are also on the patchbay. (The line connections on the stagebox are also on the patchbay and so are additional XLRs, making signal routing easy)
- I also use the Line inputs/outputs on the Apollo, to use (low latency) DSP FX on it like send-FX that I can send to from the D8B (or other patch points). I wouldn’t use this for stuff where the phase needs to be 100%, but for something like a nice reverb, it’s good and usable.
- I DO use the D8B’s Aux sends to route signals to external FX units… so, those converters I do use. But I do more with ITB effects, than outboard gear, usually.
- I have the analog outputs of the Quantum and Apollo normalled to a passive analog summing box. I bring the level back up with a Aurora Audio GTQ2 pre (I also usually use this for all individually tracked instruments, because it sounds great. And with that “Neve” sound on the way in, and again when summing, I at least “imagine” that this warms the signal up quite a bit with all the iron in that pre.

So, basically, I have most analog connections on the patchbay, and record directly into the DAW, with the D8B mostly serving as a monitor mixer, but I DO use some of the FX etc. on channels that come in via ADAT, that get mixed down to the S/PDIF again. So, I do mix on the D8B sometimes (but sometimes stay completely in the box, using the D8B as a controller via the ProBox… depends on the project).

Since my audio interfaces are Thunderbolt and have pretty good latency, this works as long as the channel count doesn’t get too high (i.e. needs larger buffer which results in latency).

Most of the time, I don’t need to record more than 8 tracks at a time, though, and in such cases, usually record through the Apollo 8, and then output the signal latency-free to the D8B for monitoring, and so I can dial in a bit of a better sound for the talent to hear (e.g. compression or FX, etc.)

Anyway… lots of text, and probably impossible to follow. I have to admit that it took me a while to wrap my head around what’s going on in your signal flow diagram, Dok… and can only imagine how terrible it is, to try to figure out what I’m saying above without the pics, sorry!

As for your patchbay layout, honestly, I couldn’t think this through enough, to “virtually” follow what goes where etc. I think if I’d stand in front of it, it’d be easier to grasp… with the pics, I think my attention span just doesn’t hold up long enough, haha!

Well, I hope there’s maybe something in my setup above, that could inspire some additional crazy routing options… it’s all about going as crazy as possible, right?

...and after I posted this yesterday, I kept thinking about that Frontier Apache digital patchbay, and how that would simplify my setup tremendously, because of the extra optical ports!

The digital Patchbay I have, is an M-Audio/Midiman DigiPatch 12x6. But the "12" comes from having 6 I/O pairs of optical connectors and 6 pairs of RCA connectors for S/PDIF.

This means that I don't have enough optical aka "ADAT suitable" ports (you could also use them for S/PDIF instead), to put ALL of my ADAT connections on the digital patchbay. And as a result, I had to choose which ADAT sources and destinations I can make switchable.

Because of that, I can "only" switch out what goes to the D8B's ADAT 1-8 and the Alt I/O (once I got that 2626 and a digital I/O card in the D8B set up), with the other end being either the ADAT 1-8 on the Quantum, the ADAT from the Octane pre and the ADAT from the soon to be added 2626.

If I had that "Apache" patchbay, I could just add ALL of my ADAT ports to it, and switch them around at will...

So, you can already guess what I'll be looking out for on CL/Reverb/eBay, etc. A Frontier Design Apache 12x optical port digital patchbay. Nice!

Thanks for helping to make my setup simpler, yet more powerful in the future, Dok!

Y-my-R wrote:Those flow-diagrams and patchbay mapping pics look like a TON of work!!

I wonder what software you used for that… I was looking for a free app to do the same kind of thing for my setup at some point, but then never really followed through.

I used LucidCharts (https://www.lucidchart.com/) to create the signal flow image, and Libre Office's spreadsheet app 'Calc' to create the patchbay diagram. It takes time, yeah... but I have the 'luxary' of having had to use these tools for purposes very similar as you see here for my own company(s)... and things like Visio, XML modelers, etc...

Y-my-R wrote:What I didn’t fully understand in the diagram is, how many ADAT channels are connected between the various devices. I’d assume 24 channels of ADAT between the D8B and HDR (but with the Digital Patchbay in-between)… but the Cranborne only does 8 channels, I think, but uses the same symbol in the diagram. So, not sure if each ADAT line means 8 channels or basically the number of ADAT ports the connected device has…?

What I also sort of derive from the image, is that you’re basically running the HDR/D8B combo as a recording system, while the Cranborne serves as your audio interface, transferring 8 channels between computer/cranborne and the patchbay… which I would assume would then by default be connected to the Alt I/O?

I have a similar setup, and wish I had a Cranborne unit, but that’ll still have to wait.

Depending upon what type of cards I have in the Tape Outs(1-3) and Alt-IO slot, I can theoretically move 16 channels of ADAT via the Cranborne 500R8 and add an additional 16 channels with a 500ADAT unit for a total of 32... they do 16 channels each @ 44kHz or 48kHz... (see the online documents), This is of course using the OPT-8 cards in each slot. The ALT-IO slot channels appear by default as returns on the 3rd surface (Return 1-8) on channels strips 65-72. I do recording ITB and on the D8B/HDR, and I'm redesigning my workflow as we speak. The D8B is most likely gonna become a control surface so to speak at some point, dunno. Perhaps a mastering mix type thing.

The Cranborne unit is gonna be for outboard gear... default, it'll most likely start off with two mic preamps, adjacent color module control, eq and compression... analog loveliness *winks*

Y-my-R wrote:Also, the setup I’m describing below, is not exactly what I’m running now, but is the concept I want to put in place, once I got a hold of a working M-Audio ProFire 2626 unit (I used to have one and know what it can and cannot do). I still felt that this “imaginary” setup, makes more sense for comparison and to point out additional options. (Reality on the ground for me is, that I have an Analog I/O card in the Alt I/O slot and still have THAT on the patchbay… but looks like I might get a 2626 very soon… someone said I can have theirs).

For me it’s this:

D8B digital:
D8B DIO-8 ADAT 1-8: Digital Patchbay (goes to PreSonus Quantum ADAT 1-8 by default)
D8B DIO-8 ADAT 9-16: PreSonus Quantum ADAT 9-16
D8B DIO-8 ADAT 17-24: Universal Audio Apollo 8
D8B DIO-8 ADAT Alt I/O: Digital Patchbay (got to M-Audio ProFire 2626 (as Standalone bi-directional converter))
D8B DIO-8 TDIF 1-8: HDR TDIF 1-8
D8B DIO-8 TDIF 9-16: HDR TDIF 9-16 (planned… not connected, yet)
D8B DIO-8 TDIF 17-24: HDR TDIF 17-24 (planned… not connected, yet)
S/PDIF: Digital Patchbay (goes to PreSonus S/PDIF in by default… that’s how I capture mixes from the D8B).
AES/EBU out: Panasonic DAT recorder (not that I'd really still use that, but the option is there)

HDR digital:
HDR DIO-8 TDIF 1-8: D8B TDIF 1-8
HDR DIO-8 TDIF 9-16: D8B TDIF 1-8 (planned… not connected yet)
HDR DIO-8 TDIF 17-24: D8B TDIF 1-8 (planned… not connected, yet)

PreSonus Quantum digital:
Quantum ADAT 1-8: Digital Patchbay (goes to D8B ADAT 1-8 by default)
Quantum ADAT 9-16: D8B ADAT 9-16
S/PDIF: Digital Patchbay (receives D8B mixes by default).

Apollo 8 digital:
Apollo ADAT 1-8: D8B ADAT 17-24
S/PDIF: Digital Patchbay (no default routing).

M-Audio Octane (Standalone 8-channel pre):
ADAT Out 1-8: Digital Patchbay (typically used on D8B ADAT 1-8, when using my electronic drum kit. That’s connected to the inserts on that unit).

ProFire 2626 digital (Standalone):
ADAT 1-8: Digital Patchbay (goes to D8B Alt I/O by default, while the analog jacks go to the analog patchbay. This allows to switch 8 channels digitally (to D8B ADAT 1-8 or Alt I/O) or patch analog signals to the Alt I/O without having to decide on analog or digital via the card installed into the D8B’s Alt I/O.
If I had a Cranborne unit, I would replace the ProFire 2626 with it, as it can serve the same digital/analog purpose via the digital and analog patchbays, AND has room for additional outboard effects, I could then choose to tie in over the ALT I/O, digitally.

There’s a number of additional S/PDIF devices connected to the digital patchbay, but that would unnecessarily complicate things if I’d list this here.

How it works:
- Anyway, essentially, the idea of the above is, to have 24 channels going between the computer and the D8B via, or alternatively between the HDR and D8B (via TDIF… but I don’t have all the cables I need, and typically use my setup with a DAW, anyway).
- Alternatively, I can have 8 ADAT channels from the Octane/Electronic Drums go to D8B 1-8, to monitor the (pilot) drums without latency. I could also send these to the Alt I/O, but mostly use channels 1-8.
- Alternatively, I can send signals from the ProFire 2626 to Channels 1-8 or the Alt I/O.
- Alternatively, I can send 8 ADAT channels between the Quantum and either D8B channels 1-8 or the Alt I/O.

As for the analog connections, this is what I have on the (analog) patchbay:

D8b analog:
- 24x line inputs to analog patchbay. My synths/samplers are normalled to these, but when I print stems, I don’t use these pres/converters.
- 12x Mic inputs (with all channels having end points on an analog XLR bay in the control room, and also on a stagebox in the recording room)
- 12 Aux Sends (normalled to my outboard FX units)
- 8 Buss Outputs (DB25 - normalled to my surround speakers)
- 2x Headphones: Patchbay for easy access
(I do NOT have the inserts on the patch bay, since I wouldn’t record through the converters/pres, anyway. No point for an “advanced” signal flow with inserts for me, here).

PreSonus Quantum analog:
- 6x Line inputs: Analog Patchbay (not normalled… only 6 because XLR/TRS combo jacks on the front panel are stupid for use with patchbays)
- 8x Line outputs: Analog Patchbay (normalled to first 8 channels of 16-channel Analog summing mixer)

UA Apollo 8 analog:
- 8x Line input: Analog Patchbay (not normalled)
- 8x Line output: Analog Patchbay (normalled to second set of 8 channels of 16-channel analog summing mixer)

ProFire 2626 analog:
8x Line input: Analog Patchbay (not normalled)
8x Line Output: Analog Patchbay (not normalled).

How it works:
- I typically only use the D8B’s analog inputs to MONITOR (not record) my outboard synths and FX units. But for that, it’s great to have that whole layer of 24 analog channels!
- The audio interface inputs are on the analog patchbay, because I typically record directly to the DAW via those interfaces, and patch what I want to record. Additional analog Pres are also on the patchbay. (The line connections on the stagebox are also on the patchbay and so are additional XLRs, making signal routing easy)
- I also use the Line inputs/outputs on the Apollo, to use (low latency) DSP FX on it like send-FX that I can send to from the D8B (or other patch points). I wouldn’t use this for stuff where the phase needs to be 100%, but for something like a nice reverb, it’s good and usable.
- I DO use the D8B’s Aux sends to route signals to external FX units… so, those converters I do use. But I do more with ITB effects, than outboard gear, usually.
- I have the analog outputs of the Quantum and Apollo normalled to a passive analog summing box. I bring the level back up with a Aurora Audio GTQ2 pre (I also usually use this for all individually tracked instruments, because it sounds great. And with that “Neve” sound on the way in, and again when summing, I at least “imagine” that this warms the signal up quite a bit with all the iron in that pre.

So, basically, I have most analog connections on the patchbay, and record directly into the DAW, with the D8B mostly serving as a monitor mixer, but I DO use some of the FX etc. on channels that come in via ADAT, that get mixed down to the S/PDIF again. So, I do mix on the D8B sometimes (but sometimes stay completely in the box, using the D8B as a controller via the ProBox… depends on the project).

Since my audio interfaces are Thunderbolt and have pretty good latency, this works as long as the channel count doesn’t get too high (i.e. needs larger buffer which results in latency).

Most of the time, I don’t need to record more than 8 tracks at a time, though, and in such cases, usually record through the Apollo 8, and then output the signal latency-free to the D8B for monitoring, and so I can dial in a bit of a better sound for the talent to hear (e.g. compression or FX, etc.)

THAT is interesting indeed... well thought out based on the gear kits. I followed along with that, just have to read thru it a coupla times to get a basic understanding. In a sense, I'm not doing things a whole lot differently, just some different tools employed on each of our end platforms. I'd be geeked to hear about your setup as you complete things, there's a particular parallel that we seem to share in workflow ideals and the practical implementations... you're also willing to 'stretch' the tech and make it span 2 decades of subsequent advancement...

Y-my-R wrote:Anyway… lots of text, and probably impossible to follow. I have to admit that it took me a while to wrap my head around what’s going on in your signal flow diagram, Dok… and can only imagine how terrible it is, to try to figure out what I’m saying above without the pics, sorry!

As for your patchbay layout, honestly, I couldn’t think this through enough, to “virtually” follow what goes where etc. I think if I’d stand in front of it, it’d be easier to grasp… with the pics, I think my attention span just doesn’t hold up long enough, haha!

Well, I hope there’s maybe something in my setup above, that could inspire some additional crazy routing options… it’s all about going as crazy as possible, right?

Nah, never too much text... as you could probably tell, I enjoy the thoroughness of covering a topic. We both got that 'gift' of completely laying out any point we happen to be discussing, you won't ever get any static from me for that. Hell, I"d have to take myself out back and kick my own ass if that were the case... LOL

Man, IF you can find an Apache patchbay unit for sale, BUY IT! They're either really reasonably priced (~ $150) or really pricey... I got one that was NOS OEM for $500, which is actually mid-priced. Ten years old, brand spanking new... this f'n thing RaWKS! It's matches up SO well with the ubiquitous ADAT stuff, I still have 2 ins/2 outs left open after connecting my gear up. I'll 'worry' about more ADAT connectivity if/when I get a 500ADAT involved... *grinning widely*

Finally, yeah... I'm all about the "crazy routing", it's kinda what I was fishing for with this post (GOTCHA! LOL) This console (D8B) already has things internally setup with a 'logical patchbay' pre-wired to all the various jacks on the rear... just going over the schematics and signal flow block diagrams bears that point out... this was/is a VERY well engineered board (within technical reasoning)...

Thanx for chiming in, man... greatly appreciated.

Enjoy the weekend

\m/

Y-my-R wrote:...and after I posted this yesterday, I kept thinking about that Frontier Apache digital patchbay, and how that would simplify my setup tremendously, because of the extra optical ports!

The digital Patchbay I have, is an M-Audio/Midiman DigiPatch 12x6. But the "12" comes from having 6 I/O pairs of optical connectors and 6 pairs of RCA connectors for S/PDIF.

This means that I don't have enough optical aka "ADAT suitable" ports (you could also use them for S/PDIF instead), to put ALL of my ADAT connections on the digital patchbay. And as a result, I had to choose which ADAT sources and destinations I can make switchable.

Because of that, I can "only" switch out what goes to the D8B's ADAT 1-8 and the Alt I/O (once I got that 2626 and a digital I/O card in the D8B set up), with the other end being either the ADAT 1-8 on the Quantum, the ADAT from the Octane pre and the ADAT from the soon to be added 2626.

If I had that "Apache" patchbay, I could just add ALL of my ADAT ports to it, and switch them around at will...

So, you can already guess what I'll be looking out for on CL/Reverb/eBay, etc. A Frontier Design Apache 12x optical port digital patchbay. Nice!

Thanks for helping to make my setup simpler, yet more powerful in the future, Dok!

Hahahaha

I reckon I figured you'd be cussing me for this...

In all seriousness, when you do find and procure one of these things, you'll laugh SO HARD when people start making jokes about this old Mackie tech... if things aren't 'plug n pray', they tend to fall into the category of 'button pushers' ... just making things worse. F'n sound-byte educated numb-skulls, couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot with the instructions clearly written on the heel... LMFAO

Keep me posted on things, I'll keep my eye open for an Apache for ya too...