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A few problems

Discussion board for Mackie's d8b Digital Console users.

A few problems

Postby Stefan » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Hi.
I think I need som help from experts ;).
I've got an D8B V5.1 i want to sync with my Alesis HD24 via Word Clock, buuuut.....Wont work......

Problem nr 1
From W/C out on the D8B to W/C in on the HD24
Midi Out ( D8B ) -> midi in ( HD24 )
Midi In ( D8B ) -> midi out ( HD24 )



Problem nr 2

And I got the big remote ( BRC ) that i got to work but I get som scratching noice on the HD24 when I armed a channel.



All cables are new ;)
Any tips?
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Re: A few problems

Postby Y-my-R » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:28 am

Hi Stefan (heisst das, dass Du aus dem Deutschsprachigen Raum schreibst?)

First, a quick clarification on terminology.

Word Clock: This keeps all the ones and zeros in a digital audio stream aligned, so they don't crash into each other, causing pops and clicks (this is a simplified explanation... they don't literally "crash" into each other). It basically makes sure, that all the 44100 Samples that are transferred every second, are sent and received at the same time on the sending and the receiving end. Without this, audio would not sound "clean", but have clicks and pops everywhere.
Word Clock has NOTHING to do with two devices playing through a song in unison. That's what the next sync format is for.

SMPTE: This is a synchronization protocol that makes two (or more) devices play through a song in sync. It keeps their play position in the same spot (...also a simplified explanation, as there's some more details that regulate specific things that are needed to keep two or more devices playing/recording together almost like a single device).
SMPTE existed before MIDI, and can exist as an Audio Stream. However, on most "newer" devices with MIDI, a SMPTE signal is sent over MIDI, to keep two devices running alongside.

MIDI (Beat) Clock and MIDI Time Code (MTC): The purpose of this is similar to SMPTE above, but it's a simpler protocol that only works with MIDI-enabled devices (e.g. you can't sync an analog tape machine by striping one channel with an MTC signal... you have to use SMPTE for that). So, if all devices support MIDI clock or MIDI Time Code, then it's fine to use that. Between MIDI Clock and MTC, MTC is better and "almost" like "SMPTE via MIDI", but still a separate sync protocol. Midi Clock, is kind of just like a pulse or a metronome that keeps the beat. MTC sends a more detailed sync signal that can be configured to be nearly sample-accurate (i.e. exact position identifiers with beats and frames, etc.).
SMPTE is still superior and/or more full-featured because it's compatible with a wider variety of devices (e.g. it can be used with old analog gear that needs to sync).

So, you need to configure a "sync play-cursor position" protocol like SMPTE/MTC/MIDI-Clock to have two or more devices play hand-in-hand together and move through the same song at the same speed, going through the same song position at the same time, etc.

...and you need to get the Word Clock sync right, so that things don't click and crackle when using digital connections.

I never used an Alesis HD24, but did a quick Google Search and found this:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/20745 ... ml?page=68

Looks like, the HD24 does NOT generate SMPTE and can't read/interpret the SMPTE synchronization protocol, either. It looks like it can generate MTC, though.

The D8B cannot generate any of the above mentioned sync signals itself (except for Word Clock, if an Apogee Clock card is installed. If not, and only the stock clock card is installed, then it can only generate Word Clock for itself but not for any other devices... well... unless such other devices don't need to sync via a dedicated W/C connector, but are fine with using the W/C signal that is part of a digital audio transmission, such as via ADAT optical or S/PDIF).
You absolutely need MTC or SMPTE sync via MIDI, though, in order to get your D8B and HD24 to run in alongside, and sync their song playback/recording.

Since the D8B can't be the MTC generator, you have to configure your HD24 to send out the MTC signal to the D8B. How to do this on the HD24 happens to be described in the link I shared above. On the D8B, it's on the Setup/MIDI screen, but there isn't really much to configure and it should just generally chase the incoming sync signal, if a proper signal is received on the MIDI in.

The wiring you described sounds about right, when it comes to MIDI. If the W/C out was connected to lower BNC connector on an Apogee Clock card, and to the W/C in on the HD24, then this sounds about right, too. It won't work if the BNC word clock cable is connected to one of the Tape In/Out cards (e.g. DIO 8). Still not sure what those BNC connectors are even good for on these cards.

Long story short, there's different types of "sync". As for MTC sync, the HD24 needs to generate it, and send it to the D8B.

For Word Clock sync, the best setup depends on if you have the stock clock card, or the Apogee Clock Card in your D8B. What you're describing above ddn't make this very clear.

Hopefully this gives you a few pointers that you can play with. If it doesn't solve it, please get back with more specifics about the Clock Card you use (i.e. the card in the SYNC Slot. Is there a card with two BNC connectors in there, but no other connectors? Or is there a metal cover and you don't see a card?), and what connectors on it you use between the D8B and HD24.

Best of luck!
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Re: A few problems

Postby Bruce Graham » Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:27 am

Hey Y-MY-R;

Beautiful explanation! Spot on!
Cheers
Bruce
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Re: A few problems

Postby Stefan » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:59 pm

Y-mr-r: sorry but I´m Swedish.
Thx for an awsome explanation.

- Update!
Today I got the BRC to sync with HD24 ;)
No noice, what so ever when I got it right. :o

Still the D8B is out of the sync chain, but I suspect my BNC cable is a 75 Ohm. So I bought new ones today 50 Ohm.

By the way:
I´ve got a Apogee Word Clock card in D8B
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Re: A few problems

Postby Y-my-R » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:25 am

...thanks for saying that, Bruce! Glad it came across OK.

Hi Stefan - no reason for being sorry to be Swedish, haha! Sweden is great! :) Stefan just happens to be a common name in Germany, which is where I'm originally from. That's why I thought I'd ask :)

Great to hear that the BRC and HD24 interact the way they should now!

When you press play on the HD 24 (with a song loaded on it), does the red SMPTE display on the D8B count up the numbers, or does it stay on 0:00:00...?

If it doesn't move, did you set the HD24 to send MTC to the D8B via MIDI, the way it was described in that manual link?

I'm not sure how important the 75 vs 50 Ohms are for wordclock. I've used all kinds of non-appropriate cables for digital and word clock connections when I was in a pinch. Most of the time, it still worked. So, for troubleshooting, I doubt that the 75 vs 50 Ohms would be the culprit. But if you already have the new cable, by all means, try it. And on the long run, it's good to have the proper cables connected of course (I forget what the right resistance for Word Clock cables is).

But if you want to sync the D8B's word clock (i.e. the thing that prevents 1's and 0's from "crashing" and causing clicks) to the word clock generated by the HD24, then you'd have to connect the W/C cable between the two, and then, in the D8B's Setup/Digital i/O window, set the "Apogee Clock" setting from "Internal" to "External".
Also, I know that an unmodified D8B Apogee Clock Card, is internally terminated. Termination is a thing, that is necessary on every "end" of BNC based "networks", such as a studio word clock setup. I don't know if the HD24 is internally terminated, though. If not, you may need a BNC T-Connector piece, and connect the BNC cable on one of the ends, a separate terminator on the other end, and the 3rd end to the HD24's Word Clock BNC connector (of course). Some devices (like the Mackie HDR) have a switch to turn Termination on or off. Try toggling that switch, if it exists, and then see if any clicks go away, or audio suddenly passes through.

The display in Setup/Digital I/O/ApogeeClock should change to say "locked" - if it says anything else, then the word clock signal isn't coming in as expected from the HD24.

But again - the word clock configuration I'm describing here, is independent of the MTC (SMPTE) sync setting.

Word Clock (i.e. the stuff I talked about above just now) prevents clicking and digital noise (...and could prevent any signal from getting passed through at all, if not configured right).

MTC/SMPTE "locks hands" between the song-position-pointers between two or more devices, so they move through a song/session together. For this, the HD24 needs to generate MTC. The D8B needs to receive it.
Did you do the MTC setup, as described in the link to the manual I had shared above?

Again, best of luck!
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