Preamp disablement

[Phil.c]

The whole idea is to use the Focusrite's preamp which I am told is better than the D8B's, I don't know if this is true?

[Y-my-R]

Hmm... I have to admit that I only thought about inputs 1-12 and inputs on the cards... but wasn't even really thinking about that the D8B has line inputs from 13-24 that do NOT have pre-amps on them, but are specifically designed for line-inputs. That's what Crash referred to as the "jackfield" on the back of the D8B.

There's "Trim" knobs present for these channels, of course... and yes - you'r passing through some sort of OP-Amp component that the trim knob will adjust. But that's not a "mic level" type of situation where you'd send the signal trough two pres in a row. These inputs are meant specifically for line-input type devices, such as the line-output of your external pre-amp. So, I have to agree with Crash, that the most straight forward way to use that pre, would be to simply connect to the line inputs of channels 13-24.
You can easily patch them to the channels you want to record to, so, it shouldn't really matter what number is printed on the input you connect to, since you can change the routing in the D8B.

...having said that, I also didn't think about the insert points, and Nuss is absolutely right about that (while considering Bruce's point about the differing signal levels inserts seem to be designed for on different devices, and that this will bring the signal in unbalanced).
IMO, if you don't have a noise issue and a signal coming in from an unbalanced input like the insert point, and the signal is strong enough for a good recording level, you're good (I'd probably do a test recording from a line input and the insert, to see if one sounds better than the other... but then again, unless you need all these inputs simultaneously, I'd just use the line-input in the first place).

As for the sound quality... IMO, the D8B pres aren't very good. I don't know that particular Focusrite pre, but the "ISA" series has a pretty good reputation, so I'd think that it should be MUCH better than those in the D8B (...or at least have a more desirable "flavor" of sound coloration than those rather dark and unexciting sounding D8B pres).

...and generally about "fancy" pres... I have to admit that I often do NOT hear a clear difference if I record a single track with one pre, then with another pre and compare the two.
What DOES make a difference, though, is how tracks that were recorded with a "fancy" pre, "stack up." So, if I record an entire project through the same "fancy" pre, and mix the tracks, the MIX will sound different and clearly better, IMO.

If mixing a project that was recorded through budget/built-in pres, such as the ones in the D8B, the tracks don't "stack" as nicely and are missing that special "something", IMO.
What I keep hearing is responsible for that, is all that Iron in the transformers of those fancy pres... but at this point, I'm just repeating marketing talk.

All I can say, is that I like the end-results of a mixed project better, when recorded with my good pre (I only have one good pre, and that's an Aurora Audio GTQ2), than when recording through one of my many budget pres, that came built into various audio gear, or that I got free/cheap over the years (Universal Audio (Apollo), PreSonus (Quantum), M-Audio (Octane/2626/PF610), Art (Project MP), Alesis (Studio32), Mackie (analog 8-Bus), NI (Komplete Audio 6), etc. etc.... all those are just "compromises", compared to recording via a higher-end, external pre IMO).

[Phil.c]

Thanks, I will do a comparison anyway with the D8b's pre amp just to see.

[Crash]

Thanks, I will do a comparison anyway with the D8b's pre amp just to see.

I'll be curious as to your thoughts. I've always felt that the d8b pres were good utility pres. They don't suck but they won't blow your skirt up either.

[Bruce Graham]

Hey Phil, Crash, Nuss, Y-MY-R;

I have used Focusrite's preamp before, but it was years ago, like 20 to 25 years ago. Maybe more (Scary)

They were amazing to say the least. I ran Royer, Sennheiser, Neuman, AKG, etc, mics through them when recording Classical Music, Rock, Stage Plays, everything, and was never disapointed. They were expecially great when record ambient sound, forests, rain, fireplaces, wind, etc. Even when recording very loud things like jet engines, they preformed flawlessly every time. Very true, very quiet. Fabulous dynamic rage. No distortion, unless I got was stupid. Wonderful preamps.
I have not be amazed by the d8b Preamaps, BUT, for what I am using them for they work just fine.
You are lucky to have them Phil.
I think by going into the line inpits (1-24), with proper gain structure, would yeild good SNR as would using the ALT in/outs. I know I harp on about gain sturture, and proper levels, but it can make a difference when using analog gear!

Possibly the best way to take advantage of them is to go directly into your recorder Input, (which I think are Mackie HDR's?), if you can, and then monitor through the tape channel return. Obviously you would need either Analog cards (and the abilty to patch your In's and outs), or if you have PDI-8's you could go in AES, assuming the Focusrite has AES out. (Patching in AES is more dificult).
Just some idea's.
Cheers
Bruce

[Phil.c]

Thank's Bruce, I have had my ISA 430 (Producer Pack) for about twenty years but have rarely used it except for DI-ing bass etc but I'll give the pre amp a go as it seems a waste just have it sitting in the rack as it's an expensive piece of kit.

[Crash]

Hey Phil, Crash, Nuss, Y-MY-R;

I have used Focusrite's preamp before, but it was years ago, like 20 to 25 years ago. Maybe more (Scary)

I think by going into the line inpits (1-24), with proper gain structure, would yeild good SNR as would using the ALT in/outs. I know I harp on about gain sturture, and proper levels, but it can make a difference when using analog gear!

Possibly the best way to take advantage of them is to go directly into your recorder Input, (which I think are Mackie HDR's?), if you can, and then monitor through the tape channel return. Obviously you would need either Analog cards (and the abilty to patch your In's and outs), or if you have PDI-8's you could go in AES, assuming the Focusrite has AES out. (Patching in AES is more dificult).
Just some idea's.
Cheers
Bruce

When I was running my d8b, I would hit the preamps, then convert, and then straight into the HDR via TDIF, like you suggest. I also used the other methods I mentioned at times too.

My studio partner has a Focusrite Red 8 which ironically is a 2 channel pre. It didn't suck. I remember they came out with a line that was green in color that I was less than impressed with. I would think the ISA wouldn't suck either. After it all gets converted to mp3, we are sawing bb's.

[Y-my-R]

Focusrite ISA series pre-amps are on the higher-end side of external pre-amps you can buy. While I haven’t had the pleasure to work with a Focusrite ISA, higher-end pre-amps like that are usually designed NOT to sound “neutral”, but to “color” the audio in a desirable way.

Kind of in the same way, as how an analog mixing console would change the character of the signal you feed into it to some degree, just by passing through those analog components.

Since the D8B doesn’t have much going on, in terms of an analog signal path, an external channel strip/pre-amp can add this sort of “analog console flavor” to your audio, before you go into the desk (D8B). And in my personal opinion, doing it this way is the best “hybrid” approach to get that analog/vintage sheen, while avoiding all the downsides of extensive analog signal paths.

Maybe it makes more sense, now, that I keep saying that I don’t use the pres and converters in the D8B. If you go into a nice external pre, then into a nice/modern A/D converter, and then DIGITALLY into the D8B, you can still get world class sound out of the D8B, despite of the converters being old technology and the pre-amps never having been top-notch on the D8B.

My Aurora Pre is basically a mini-Neve channel strip (Pre/EQ combo, designed by a Neve guy, who helped design Neve pres at the time). So, going through that on the way in, should color the sound in the same way, as if I was tracking through a Neve desk (…or at least going in that direction, since it’s not the “full” signal path it would pass through).
Since everything else in my signal chain is digital, and I’d even send the mix (when mixing via the D8B) out of it’s S/PDIF stereo out and record it digitally, there’s no other analog component or conversion that would impact (or degrade) the sound quality.

If you’d do something akin to that with your Focusrite ISA pre, then you basically add the “Focusrite Console” sound to your D8B setup (…not sure if the ISA pres were used in their consoles… the ISA might be BETTER, actually).

Basically, the only reason why I’m still using the D8B, is because its possible to use what it’s got going on the “inside” in a modern environment, without having it bring the quality down (converters/pres)… and that’s by using external converters and pres, but still using the great routing capabilities inside the desk (and physical faders, etc.).

But since another Focusrite pre was mentioned… I haven’t used the Rednet, either, but that ones also on the higher end of their “digital” pre and audio interface offerings, so, they should have decent pres in there.

Generally, though, Focusrite has a pretty wide range of pres, that go from “just as bad as other budget pres” to “really nice” like that ISA pre you’ve got.

As an example, I tried using the built-in pres in a Focusright Saffire Pro 24 with drums (along with that M-Audio Octane on he ADAT in), and they don’t have nearly enough headroom. I had to use in-line attenuators, because those pres can’t handle the level from typical drum mics… AND they got noisy when turning them up to the required level, when used with High-Z stuff like guitars, etc. Sound-wise, they’re trying to be “neutral” (like most budget pres on budget audio interfaces), and are within the “usable range” - but that range is VERY small on Saffire pres. Because of that, they’re GARBAGE, IMO.
The original Digidesign M-Box and M-Box 2, as well as their Digi002 had Focusrite “branded” preamps in them, that were not in the least any better than any other budget pres on other audio interfaces (I find them a good notch worse than many other built-in pres… but the name sold units for Digi, I’m sure).
But again, to avoid a misunderstanding: Focusrite is a GREAT brand with a long history, that makes AWESOME gear, and I expect the ISA preamp you have to be a shining example of that.
I’m just saying that as with any other brand, you get what you pay for… and the built-in Focusrite pres in budget gear, aren’t any better than in budget gear by other brands.

Long story short… using good pres during recording on ALL the tracks, can make a significant different for the final mix - especially if you also go through the best possible converters you can find. If used properly, the “High-end pre w/ high-end converter” approach, can give you something very close to the sound of an analog console that could cost as much of a house (well... I also have a separate option for "passive analog summing" that I feed via the 16 DA converters on my audio interfaces, and the mixed signal then passes through that Aurora pre again, to bring the level back up. So, in my case, that adds the Neve sound on the input side, and again, on the mixdown side... but I think you're getting the idea of what I'm trying to say).

You can make very good recordings with the D8B and it’s built-in pres/converters, too. But you actually have the gear to play in world-class territory, if using what you got in a well thought out way.

[Crash]

But since another Focusrite pre was mentioned… I haven’t used the Rednet, either, but that ones also on the higher end of their “digital” pre and audio interface offerings, so, they should have decent pres in there.

If you are referring to the Red 8 I mentioned, that is not the same animal as the Rednet. I am referring to this animal.

https://youtu.be/wUE-mCYDQfI

I see there is a "Red 8Pre" which is a confusing naming scheme by Focusrite in my opinion.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... e-red-8pre

Just wanted to clear that up in case of confusion.

[Phil.c]

Thanks, when I get chance, I'll do a comparison with the ISA and d8b pre's and also a total project with just the ISA's preamp.