MIDI problems

[Mariechen]

Hey Friends,

After working a little bit with the D8B and being excited about the workflow, I decided to get also an HDR.
For the question I don’t know to post it here or in the HDR section…
I got one via eBay, price was ok, not cheap but in a perfect condition, updated BIOS (1.4), two harddrive cages, original documentation, 3 DIOs and. Few more things…HDR24/96 by the way

After setting it up, I struggled first a little bit syncing both units together because the lack of an apogee worldclock card in my D8B….
But with BNC cables from every DIO to the other one in the HDR(first one in the worldclock in of HDR)
I got this to work… excellent!
But then the MIDI connection …
I connected both units like it should be, … nothing…
Checked the settings in the setup menu on both machines…
Everything looked good.
Checked the cables, tried different ones, changed the adpater… nothing.
Studied the forum, database… hmmm… nothing new.
Connected an usb/MIDI cable to my MacBook, open an MIDI monitor…connection to the D8B, pressing transport buttons.. and they appeared in the monitor.
The signals looked good, makes sense.
Ok, D8B is sending.
Changed connection to the HDR…
Nothing there.. pressing transport buttons, rec buttons… nothing on the line.
So, searched again the web, forum nothing.
While booting up, the HDR shows the serial card with INT 10 as expected… hmmm
Hey, this is MIDI! Did I miss something? Is there the need to set up a MIDI map?
But I should see signals out of the HDR, right?

Any suggestions on this topic? For me it looks like the card itself might be not working…
I could change the cards between the units, but before I try this I wanted to asked the forum….


Best regards

Marie

[Y-my-R]

It sounds weird, if there's no MIDI coming from the HDR, when connecting to the computer and checking with something like MIDI Monitor or MIDI-Ox.

But just to make sure: Is the HDR set to generate timecode? (And "Chase Timecode" needs to be OFF on the HDR)
Is the HDR set to generate MMC? (Needed for the transport buttons to work)
Automation isn't bypassed on the D8B? (I think that also would prevent the D8B from syncing to the HDR).

I'm sure you already know that, but the D8B doesn't generate any timecode, and depends on another device (such as the HDR) to generate it and send it to the D8B. But sounds like the D8B does what it should (i.e. send MMC start/stop commands when pressing the transport buttons), but the HDR doesn't.

IRQ 10 sounds right from memory for the MIDI card, but I'd compare the HDR BIOS settings to what's listed in the Database, to be sure. If the IRQ isn't set right, that could well be the reason for MIDI not working.

There's no need to set up a MIDI map. The D8B should sync to the HDR without that in place.

If you're sure the HDR "should" be generating timecode (i.e. all settings right), but there's nothing coming out of it's MIDI port and all the settings (e.g. also the BIOS, etc.) look correct, then I'd also start troubleshooting the MIDI card. Maybe check another slot to install it to (in case it was moved to where it shouldn't be...? But I think the slots are labeled on the HDR, right?)

About the BNC connectors on the DIO-8 cards. I didn't know this until recently (read up about TDIF connections on the D8B), but the sole purpose of those is, to provide a PHASE-SHIFTED clock signal, specifically for Tascam DA38 and DA88 recorders.
Compared to how the clock signal should be for other/normal digital devices, the clock coming out of those BNC connectors is out of phase by 90 degrees. So, I wouldn't recommend to use those to provide clock to the HDR.
(You probably also read, already that the ADAT ports on DIO8 cards are also out of phase... but I think by 180 degrees, unless you have the latest available revision of the DIO8 firmware... 2.1, I think. That was to conform with how the old/original "Blackface" ADATs handled the phase on ADAT optical ports. But that changed with newer "Silverface" ADATs and Mackie followed suit by correcting the phase of the ADAT ports to the regular way).

If it works for you and the HDR locks to the clock coming from the D8B this way, though - great! B/c of the out of phase clock, I could imagine that you'd get more jitter or other artifacts when having it set up like this, though. So, on the long run, I'd recommend to get an Apogee clock card for the D8B and sync the HDR to it that way.

Best of luck with the MIDI issue! Curious to hear if you get it working!

[Mariechen]

Thanks for your reply!

Yes, the card is in the correct slot (you’re right, they’re labeled) . I tried to change the slots (changed network and MIDI) , hdr starts up and after a short period in the OS it’s frozen… tried then in the original slot without network card (because network and MIDI shared the same IRQ): same result as above, frozen after short time…
Hmm strange….
Maybe I will try next weekend to swap the cards between HDR and D8B, then I will know if the card is working or not. For this I have to remove the D8B again from the flightcase…

Clock card: yes if possible I will try to get an apogee… but they’re not so often to find for a reasonable price…
By the way: 4 of my DIOs have the revision 2.1, two have 2.0.
I have to check the quality of the recordings…

For now it’s working…

Regards

Marie

[Y-my-R]

I'm not entirely sure from memory, but I think the network card should NOT get its own IRQ in the BIOS for the D8B/HDR.

From what I recall, the only IRQ for ISA devices that should be reserved is 10, and somehow I'm thinking that this is for the MIDI card (quite honestly, I get confused about the insides of the D8B and HDR... it's at least for that, if it's the same as for the D8B).

Maybe for a test, remove the network card, leave the MIDI card in the slot that is labeled for it, and try like that. Could be a conflict between the network card and the MIDI card (but then it should really also only be settings, as long as both cards are original to the HDR).
If the MIDI card works after that, you could either troubleshoot where the conflict comes from, or just keep the network card removed (unless you want to copy files via FTP or cascade more than one unit... but I think most get their files off of the HDR in another way (e.g. remove the drive caddy and connect to the computer via a IDE/USB adapter).

Generally, though... if the BIOS is set right, you usually don't have to deal with any "other" IRQ conflicts, like you might otherwise have to when running Windows on similar hardware.

Depending on the MIDI card (i.e. if it's the "Midiman" type), you might also have to set jumpers on the MIDI card, to make sure the IRQ and base address match... but D8B/HDR users usually don't have to mess with this, so it's unlikely that this got changed away from the default... but it would be worth to check.

There's an article about DIO8 firmware revisions and their changes somewhere in the database... I believe version 2.0 also has the correct/normal phase for its ADAT ports... but I think 2.0 wasn't setting the 90 degree offset for DA38/DA88 recorders correctly. So, if you're clocking the HDR off of one of the 2.0 cards in the D8B, that might actually give the "regular" word clock, so it might help to get around having to use an Apogee clock card.

That the phase on the DIO8 2.0 cards isn't at 90 degrees, is a bug, from what I understand. But it would work in your favor, in this case.

I only read about all of this, btw., because I recently wired up an HDR to my D8B via TDIF cables (and have my DAW computer connected via ADAT cables... and can switch in the D8B, which one I want to have interface with the D8B... selectable in banks of 8).
I had all kinds of trouble, and learned from the database, that the sending and receiving DIO8 cards should always have the same firmware number.
I always thought I should put the same firmware number in the same device (e.g. 3x2.1 in D8b and 3x2.0 in HDR), but that was what caused the issues with TDIF I saw.
So, apparently it's best, if using mixed such cards, to use, for example, DIOv2.0 in Bank 1 in the D8B and the HDR and/or DIOv2.1 in Bank 2 of the D8B/HDR, etc... so that the sending and receiving device always have the same firmware version.

This might only really be relevant when using the TDIF ports, though. When NOT doing it was described above, I got crazy frozen meters und the D8B would freeze after a few seconds. I happened to have a total of 6 v2.1 DIO8 cards, and put them in both, the D8B and HDR, and the problems stopped. So, this "might" be something to look out for, but is likely not as important for the ADAT ports as for the TDIF ports.

Ausserdem... Mariechen klingt ziemlich Deutsch. Wir koennen also auch gerne auf Deutsch umschalten, falls das leichter sein sollte

[Mariechen]

Hey,

Ja du hast recht… bin Deutsche… falls es für das Forum kein Problem ist, gerne in deutsch.
Bin gerade beim Kunden, kann erst heute Abend antworten…

Bis dahin

Grüße

Marie

[Y-my-R]

Naja, wenn wir beim Englisch bleiben, koennen andere auch Vorschlaege machen. Ist vielleicht doch besser... aber es ginge auch auf Deutsch, falls es das wesentlich einfacher macht... Es gibt hier im Forum auch ein paar Eintraege, wo ich mit Leuten auf Deutsch hin-und-her geschrieben habe.

(For everyone else... just saying that I could also respond in German if that would make things easier, but suggesting to keep it in English, so others can chime in, too).