OT: Recording a Choir!!!!!

[Dan Worley]

My favorite Stereo setup right now is an M/S config. Love the amount of control it offers when done right!

-Casey

If you're doing M/S, one side is already flipped so how do you deal with that to cancel out the monitor? Do you flip the sides of Take-2 opposite that of Take-1?

Example:

Take1:
Left: Pos
Right: Neg
Mid: Pos

Take 2
Left: Neg
Right: Pos
Mid: Neg

c-ya,

Dan Worley

Hey Dan,

You caught me rambling two things together which happens often when I don't get to talk shop for awhile I've never tried to do M/S with a choir set up, but I can see the concern with the bleed. But maybe since the Side mic is in fig8 it will already have a nice amount of rejection to start with. The mid might be the one that would give any problems. This is all theoretical until attempted of course.

-Casey

Thanks. I know what you mean.

Excellent point about the figure 8. I didn't think of that but I think you nailed it. I should only have to flip the center mic. I'll have to experiment with all this. I'm excited by the idea. I only wish this thread would have shown up a month earlier.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[csp]

You guys really have me thinking.

Some time in the next few weeks, I must give it a try (ie record a track with signal as well as F/B, then record a non signal track but only F/B).

However, what the presenter was saying, was to record two takes of the choir singing the same part and then reversing the phase of the second take and doing this for each extra part being sung. In my opinion, there is no way that can work perfectly as choirs, singers musicians, whatever, NEVER perform exactly the same each time and hence there must be some form of cancellation occurring at parts (if not all the way through) of the mixed version.

It is hard enough to place mics to record (say) a full choir and/ or orchestra (with only one take) and not get some phasing problems somewhere. I've had this problem with major symphony orchestras and large choirs in some quite famous locations and a lot of time has been spent during rehearsals moving mics (inches at times) to get the best result possible.

David

[Dan Worley]

You guys really have me thinking.

Some time in the next few weeks, I must give it a try (ie record a track with signal as well as F/B, then record a non signal track but only F/B).

However, what the presenter was saying, was to record two takes of the choir singing the same part and then reversing the phase of the second take and doing this for each extra part being sung. In my opinion, there is no way that can work perfectly as choirs, singers musicians, whatever, NEVER perform exactly the same each time and hence there must be some form of cancellation occurring at parts (if not all the way through) of the mixed version.

It is hard enough to place mics to record (say) a full choir and/ or orchestra (with only one take) and not get some phasing problems somewhere. I've had this problem with major symphony orchestras and large choirs in some quite famous locations and a lot of time has been spent during rehearsals moving mics (inches at times) to get the best result possible.

David

Obviously the guy was incorrect, David. He was either confused at the moment or just didn't know the answer. I would guess the former.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[synthjoe]

In my opinion, there is no way that can work perfectly as choirs, singers musicians, whatever, NEVER perform exactly the same each time...

Exactly. That's why I think the presenter migth have been right. How is 'doubling of the vocals' performed? Now, if you flip the phase on one of the doubled vocal tracks does it sound like phasing more than before phase reversal? Might be the case theoretically, but I don't recall that ever happening to me.

So if you take the advice of the presenter, you might end up with double the choir sound and cancelled F/B. I said 'might', because I have not tried this myself either, but in theory it might or might not create cancellation. My concern would not be the choir, because the two recordings will have the effect of a doubled choir, but the reverb might react differently when phase reversed - I don't know... And a well trained choir and good conductor would in my mind be able to perform twice the same act matching close enough to sound like a doubling rather than two separate performances.

I'd give it a shot. I'll try to remember when recording a choir next time - or anyone with actual experience in doubling choirs and flipping phases would be welcome to chime in - I guess...

[Casey_Pittman]

Exactly. That's why I think the presenter migth have been right.

But the presenter was not talking about "doubling" the choir. He was attempting to describe how to record a choir without headphones. And the way to do it with the FB speaker is to record a pass with singing then a second pass without singing and flip the second. If you were to do a pass with singing on both then you would have no music and frequencies of the choir phasing in and out due to the lack of a perfect double take.

-Casey

[Dan Worley]

Yeah, reversing the phase on doubles would be a big waste of time. You wouldn't end up with anything close to being usable.

In the sessions I did with very small young choirs, I used doubling and tripling and quadrupling and that worked very well.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[synthjoe]

Casey, I appreciate that the issue was not about doubling but cancelling FB. However, doubling might be a pleasant side effect, increasing the 'body' of the choir. Only maybe. I have not tried. You're right that in order to get a perfect rendition of the choir in the end result, there should be no singing on the second take. However, apart from this aspect, if singing was a perfectly synced second take as well, then you would end up with no choir... Hardly any chance to it, I believe - and why would a phase reversed second take differ from the normal one, if it is not a synced copy of the first?

Yeah, reversing the phase on doubles would be a big waste of time. You wouldn't end up with anything close to being usable.

In the sessions I did with very small young choirs, I used doubling and tripling and quadrupling and that worked very well.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

Dan, the two parts of your post seem to be contradicting. Doubling worked well - great! Phase reversal in general would be a waste of time, I agree (not so if you tried to cancel out FB), but why would it result in anything unusable? I have not tried, so I don't know for sure - but based on the same principle your doubling of the choir parts should not work either, as there is no way to guarantee the phase of the double take, as far as the choir is concerned. So in my opinion phase reversal has hardly any effect on the end result (not sure about reverb, as said earlier). What am I ignoring?

You seem to be the man here with recordings using more than one take on the same choir. So if you reload your project, does flipping phase on two different takes of the choir reak havoc? Would be educational you letting us know.

[Dan Worley]

Casey, I agree that the issue was not about doubling but cancelling FB, however, doubling might be a pleasant side effect, increasing the 'body' of the choir. Only maybe. I have not tried.

Yeah, reversing the phase on doubles would be a big waste of time. You wouldn't end up with anything close to being usable.

In the sessions I did with very small young choirs, I used doubling and tripling and quadrupling and that worked very well.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

Dan, the two parts of your post seem to be discrepant. Doubling worked well - great! Phase reversal in general would be a waste of time I agree (not if you try to cancel out FB), but why would it result in anything unusable? I have not tried, so I don't know for sure - but based on the same principle your doubling of the choir parts should not work either, as there is no way to guarantee the phase of the double take, as far as the choir is concerned. So in my opinion phase reversal has hardly any effect on the end result. What am I ignoring?

Well, I take it back. I actually just tried it on the project I'm working on, and you're right! I am coming up with some usable results when I flip the phase of one of the stereo-track doubles. It's canceling out most of the FB (even though I didn't have the monitors in the best placement for this) and there are no real unpleasant phase shifts or cancellations. In fact, I would say it sounds better than what I had. There may be some attenuation in the low end but it's hard to determine if that's just due to the cancellation of the FB and I'm not losing anything else. Doesn't matter, it sounds good.

Anyway, that's what's going on with this one part. I look forward to trying it out on other parts.

I'm surprised, but pleased, and I stand corrected.

Thanks!

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[synthjoe]

Interesting results, thanks for trying and letting us know! I too, will try this myself next time.

[hyaena]

Thanks for sharing the results of your test, Dan and thanks to synthjoe for your suggestions.

I have recorded many childrens choirs recently for a childrens songs CD. But luckily we had enough headphones, disassembled them and gave each child one system to press against one ear.
But I never had the inspiration to phaseinvert the doubling tracks to improve the overall sound.

I´ll give that a try one of the next projects .

Manfred